I completely agree, Bandy … I remember the early phone calls with you in 2017 where we specifically spoke about the kind of intervention individuals request when a family member is exhibiting signs of being "a danger to themselves or others." You spoke about this with congressional leaders shortly thereafter.
I have personally called my congressional representative and senators multiple times and continue to do so, expressing the need for mental fitness exams for people in high office whose behavior affects millions.
TFG manifests in observable behavior ALL the symptoms on the Hare Psychopathy Inventory. He clearly fomented a violent insurrection which could have been much more horrendous had it not been for the quick and solid response of the Capitol police.
There is definitely a veil of pathological denial in the minds of many Americans and even many journalists who just cannot allow themselves to believe that a dangerous ConMan was occupying the presidency of the United States and continues to occupy almost every minute of the news cycle.
Milton Meyer, in his book about Germans under Hitler, They Thought They Were Free, quotes two maxims: "Resist the beginnings" and "Consider the end." But, he says, "One must foresee the end in order to resist, or to even see, the beginnings."
In our country, so used to elections every 2 to 4 years, many people cannot imagine an end to these democratic activities. And many others foolishly embrace it as they follow, hypnotically, in the footsteps of a pathologically megalomaniacal would-be tyrant who threatens us daily with images of the colossal rage he will unleash if we don't bend to his will and give him what he wants.
To break through this pathological denial, those of us who can see "the end," must continue, as you do, Bandy, to speak to this issue on a daily basis, everywhere and in any way we can.
Thank you Bandi! Your analysis is exactly what is needed now, and what has been disastrously missing in the national, even international ether. I was unaware of your efforts in 2015, but I had pulled out my dad’s dusty old book collection which included mein kampf and The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. The similarities of Hitler and trump were astounding. I’m now convinced that it is by no means by accident. He sees the gullibility in others and capitalizes on that in a truly evil way.
Mike, I completely agree that people like Hitler and TFG recognize that other people can be fooled, gaslighted, and manipulated into not seeing covert, evil intent. Hitler hypnotized almost an entire nation and if it hadn't been for people like Dr. Lee, who spoke up early, Trump would have been able to do the same.
This sickness from Trump is spreading far and wide by many media and social media avenues. The most troubling aspect is how it seems many actively seek it out. THEY WANT IT. This continuous diet of evil can only lead to destruction. As one person noted in the comments, “voting doesn’t seem enough.” I agree. I feel quite powerless and “barbarians at the gate” are increasing at an exponential rate.
I agree with you, Lisa, that what's happening in our country requires much more than just voting. The psychic sickness you speak of is the spread of delusional thinking. A full-fledged Fantasyland of Delusion has been building one step at a time as 45 discovers how many people can be fooled, gaslighted, and manipulated, and how far they will go to create for him the triumphal fantasy that's been playing in his mind since he was a traumatically neglected infant, an secretly crushed and angry child, and ultimately a scheming, vengeful adolescent. Our job, as I see it, is to spread enough sane reality to counteract TFG's fantasy world, where he's the injured hero and the criminals who stormed the Capitol are his "patriotic" vindicators. In Reality Land, where we live, we know that he is a vengeful, hateful man who idealizes the primitive power of force, and that he will stop at nothing to become the American Putin. We must do everything to spread THAT story, over and over again, and I trust that as more of us do, we counteract the spread of the empty, vacuous, delusional world of a seriously disturbed man-child.
Anger, at least, and, likely, hate confer a fleeting sense of power. So the dosage of incendiary manipulation by the Trump camp is increased by ramping-up the politics of vengeance, etc. to keep Trump followers primed.
Thank you. I've followed the links, and to be kind and generous about them, they contain no evidential basis for anything--just someone making kinds of declarations. People have a right to their opinions, but I'd appreciate some basis for reasoning. Also, I think there can be a case for limits to tolerance when the situation can be regarded (with ample, detailed evidence) as very dangerous.
I welcome him or her...It's fine to dialogue with those who have different beliefs. I also agree with Richard Hahn that there are legitimate limits and I will not tolerate violence of any kind, verbal, emotional, or physical. Other than that, people are welcome to engage in dialogue, as I think Bandy has demonstrated.
Madeline, i have sympathy with some of these people even when they have embraced destructive political beliefs. They are not the perpetrators, they are actually poor victims. But as Dr Lee said, these kind of people unfortunately can't be rationally persuaded with any reason or logic. Reasonable arguments just bounce of them.
I agree, Sanjeev. Steve Hassan, the expert on cult behavior, suggests that we don't try to impact them with OUR perspective, but rather that we listen, respectfully, to theirs. We don't have to agree to afford them the experience of being listened to, rather than argued with. You might not want to do that so, of course, you don't have to. Or you might think that listening respectfully has no benefit. But experts say that there's nothing else to do anyway, and you never know when kindness will make an impression on someone.
Really great point, Madeline. I have listened to a few Trump-types. When they gain enough trust in me to feel comfortable that I will not attack them, Trump-types (at least thus far) are nice. Though, as is evident, I have no expertise in the disciplines of psychiatry or psychology, I have come to believe that many in the Trump base feel overlooked and hurt. Listening will almost certainly not persuade a Trump-type to change views, but it may lessen his or her proclivity toward acting out on violence. I fear that listening may not be enough, even in precluding violence, since a Trump type is subjected to venomous rhetoric and disinformation seemingly 24 / 7.
Ned, I have no expectations that anything we do or say will actually "change" die-hard Trump followers. Their need to believe he's on their side is something you and I are not going to have an impact on. And yes, the media they listen to daily reinforce their delusions. So none of that's going to change just because they have one conversation with someone who listens respectfully. But neither will it hurt to do so, if we can manage it. :)
Madeline, you may find this essay by historian, Dr Heather C. Richardson, to be interesting. I hope that Drs Rischardson and Lee are in contact. They zap Trump right between the eyes from two different vantage points. A powerful combination of intellect.
My concern remains when the problems of "poor victims" become mine or ours. That is, when these poor victims turn violent under the coded permission given them by Trump.
Dr. Bandy Lee's correspondent is correct that her courageous stand for principle and for unflinching psychiatric fidelity ensures a continuing spiritual legacy. In the Bible, verses such as John 5:17 and John 17:3 assure believers that positive responsiveness to the voice of God immediately confers entry into eternal life, which is both ecstatic and endless, notwithstanding the tenuous thread between time and eternity. In regard to the social scourge of violence, it's defeat is existentially predicated upon prevention of violence toward women and children. For various complex reasons, it will not be possible to make substantial progress in reducing human to human, person to person violence, unless adequate progress is made against violence toward women and children. G-d bless!
In support of what you say about Trump and his dangerousness, I just a review of a book in the New Yorker by Timothy Ryback about Hitler and the Nazis. The review is by Adam Gopnik. The similarities between 1932 Germany and 2004 US are very clear: a man who even many of his supporters see as a clown, who is very narcissistic, hating democracy and a liar. And how many powerful people thought they could use him for their own ends and then get rid of him. Things are even more dangerous here, though, because Hitler's party never got near 50% of the vote in any local election, unlike the Republicans, who do get more than 50%, especially in the Southern states and are in a Trump cult. So Hitler did not grab power; he was given it.
Thank you again, Dr. Lee. I just wrote to the WMHC group and attached a NY Times essay that details how Trump is also like a mob boss--especially as he's bragged about comparing himself with Al Capone! Very, very dangerous, with his cult following (voters!) beyond rational reach. Vote Blue!
Oh if only every American would’ve read your letter and took it seriously, we wouldn’t be looking down the barrel of a fascist theocracy(bible anybody?) as we are now.
Thank you, Mike. That letter is a tribute to those ten pivotal minutes that my ninth grade Latin teacher digressed from declensions and conjugations and talked about his part in the Milgram experiments ten years before. Though the credit is due that teacher, hey, I lived in N.Y.C. long enough to know how to take credit when it is not due. 😉 The key take-away for me is that, I know how susceptible I can be to opinions. Put more optimistically, as somebody (l once thought President Jefferson) said, 'The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.' That insight applies on both the individual and collective level.
Thank you. In Wikipedia, Mike Godwin himself (of "Godwin's Law" about comparisons to fascists/Nazis) is quoted as regarding the comparisons as having value in certain situations.
I was in Connecticut for high school and had this great Latin teacher. You know the type, a teacher so engrossed in, and enthused by, the subject matter and so fond of teaching that he brought Latin back to life -- quite an accomplishment in my case as I liked neither Latin nor home-work. He was a role model for me.
🧑🎓
Anyway, one day my teacher talked about being a participant in the Milgram experiments and told us about his experience in it. Until then, I just assumed all Germans were weak in will and spirit, perhaps just plain bad. In the Milgram experiments, an actor guided a test evaluator, the latter as the unwitting subject, who asked questions.
🤨
Another actor stayed behind a partition and answered questions, to some of which he would respond incorrectly. With each error by the 'analysand', the 'evaluator' would turn the next in a series of switches, each with an increasingly intense electric shock. Almost unnoticeable at first, the switches ascended to levels of "danger".
As switches reached the upper limit, there would be cautions that the level of electricity administered could be harmful, even fatal, to people with heart conditions. The fake test-taker would cry out in pain and beg the evaluator not to continue. When the evaluator hesitated to turn the switch, the 'administrator' would press him to turn the switch.
😱
The results got Dr Milgram in a boat-load of trouble, evidently, for breaching ethics in causing harm to the test subjects and in documenting results deceptively. My sense is that half of Dr Milgram's punishment came from the sobering finding that a super-majority of test-takers turned all the switches.
That majority percentage was in line with the results of similar re-runs of the experiment implemented in other countries. My Latin teacher spoke about his participation in the study and stated that he had walked out on the experiment in the early stages. So, I had one more reason to admire him and aspire to his level of conscience.
💯
FROM THE ARTICLE: ". . . . in the Milgram experiment, some participants refused to continue administering shocks, demonstrating individual variation in obedience to authority figures. In the original Milgram experiment, approximately 35% of participants refused to administer the highest shock level of 450 volts, while 65% obeyed and delivered the 450-volt shock."
🤔
The seed that my teacher's anecdote planted in my wretched little fifteen year old mind was that "it could happen here." As the seed grew to fruition over my maturity, another implication became clear: "it could happen to me." So, now I am happily a paragon of Christ-like conscience . . . NOT . . . sadly.
😢
That Latin teacher died, apparently divorced and alcoholic, implicated for an enabling role in sexual transgressions by teachers against students. That broke my heart and, at first, disillusioned me, though I was fully mature by then -- or, at least, fully grown up. Along came another legacy in addition to caution toward me and my 'conscience'.
😇
Virtue, for me at least, is a practice of daily discipline. I will never be virtuous, but I can get closer to being so over time. More importantly, I have found that what makes a hero a hero or a saint a saint may be his or her defects. People are NOT anointed by G-D. The choice for virtue emerges at a critical time, in a critical situation.
😳
Free will then assumes a paramountcy. Hence the letter from me to me in 2016, over forty years after my Latin teacher casually discussed his experience for five minutes. Another proof that little things can mean a lot. I am not captain courageous, never will be. Greatness, even modest success, has eluded me.
🤞
But I will be damned that, if "it" happens over here, Dr Arendt's 'banality of evil' will happen inside of me. In the meantime, please do not feel sorry for me -- I have got that one covered amply all by myself. As to Godwin's law, the idea of the Holocaust being trivialized in public discourse by loose references to it makes a lot of sense.
😟
The same phenomenon occurs with other periods (e.g., Watergate with nannygate, etc.). The frequency of reversion to Nazi references likely has more to do with the stickiness of the evil in living memory, even several generations later. Nevertheless, recalling an evil on an individual level, while likely exaggerated, may remain instructive to oneself.
A very good analogy. Another study that shows how easily decent people can become vicious, is the one by Phil Zimbardo, the Stanford Prison Study. Student who volunteered were put into two groups: prisoners and guards. Even though these were "normal," the "guards" began to brutalize the "prisoners." The study was stopped before its intended ending and Zimbardo was criticized for the research. Milgram was also criticized and these studies are not permitted. But they show how ordinary, decent people can become vicious if they are in a group that is behaving that way. And Hitler, in order to be elected Chancellor, moderated his statements about the Jews and the elite. Trump talks of a "bloodbath." And I think he means it.
Thank you for the information about the Stanford Prison Study and the criticisms of Dr Milgram. This statement really caught my because Trump has given people permission to act out violently: 💡"But they show how ordinary, decent people can become vicious if they are in a group that is behaving that way." Thank you, again, Stephan. 🤝
I followed the link to your letter and appreciate it -- quite an observation at that point in time, especially about the Hitler of the early '30s being comparable. The comparisons happen, hence Godwin coming along, because there are similarities based on recurring trends. I appreciate also your commentary about Milgram and your teacher. From my studies as a psychologist, I've been familiar with that research and the subsequent flack. I think it would not be approved by ethics boards today. Anyway, I'd never fully investigated the impact on participants and have wondered about it (having only read about some reactions in general). It was interesting to read about your direct experience with one. No-one is perfect, and I wonder if any of that teacher's experience with Milgram had any influence on later behavior. (Offhand, I don't know of any studies in general, just some commentary.) A handy, quick guide about the impact of thinking (in the cognitive-behavioral model) is Dr. Paul Friday's fridayslaws.com . For research (free reading of findings) into the authoritarian personality, see Dr. Altemeyer's theauthoritarians.org . I believe it comprehensively explains the Trump/followers phenomenon in particular, as well as authoritarianism in general. Survive!
Richard, so many thanks for links; I will check them out. 🤝 That essay of mine was inspired by those five minutes in that Latin class in 1972. I invoked the Godwin Law in another Forum after you referred me to it. The excessive comparisons and references to Nazism and Hitler do dilute the meaning of the Holocaust. 😟 Perhaps some people use these comparisons, not because they are valid, but the calculation that such references foreclose discussion. 😠
Thanks. I understand the concern, although it's interesting that Godwin addresses it in the quote from him in Wikipedia: Godwin "suggests that, applied appropriately, the rule 'should function less as a conversation ender and more as a conversation starter.'" I guess it depends on "appropriately," as you'd made that excellent point about the timing (early 1930s).
I've adopted a remark when I would happen to be with any Trump supporters/voters, to be kind and generous to them without getting into a pointless debate. I just intend on telling them in a very serious tone that I hope someone like Trump would never, ever cross their paths in their private lives--adding to any reply that he's that dangerous. I'd leave it at that and of course vote Blue!
Ask the millions of people he tortured, enslaved, and shipped off to concentration camps.
I'd suggest you ask the 6-11 million he butchered in those camps, but they're not around to tell you. However, there are still 280,000 Holocaust survivors alive to do so.
However, from reading your material, it's pretty obvious that you regard Hitler not as a sadistic megalomaniac butcher, but as a great leader.
To be clear, I'm not blaming the German people for the actions of Hitler and his henchman, even though many of them were seduced into participating in what became the Holocaust. The point that Dr. Lee and others on this thread are making, is that many Americans have been similarly seduced into believing that Trump is well-meaning, that he's the victim, that he's standing up for you against the "tyranny" of democracy. Many mental health professionals, and millions of ordinary Americans, can see the dangerousness of a man who thinks he is above the law and who arrogantly attacks anyone who doesn't agree with him. He planned, encouraged, and didn't stop a violent insurrection against the very government he now wants us to let him lead.
He is like an enraged toddler demanding more cookies and violently refusing to go to bed.
If you don't understand and accept this message, then I nevertheless just hope that someone like Trump would never, ever cross your path in your personal life.
There is behavioral research that addresses the authoritarian personality shown by both dictators and their followers: theauthoritarians.org . The findings are free at that website. I believe in things that have a research base (like FDA approved medications that my doctor prescribes). It's not just a matter of opinion.
I followed the link and read the article. It basically looks like just a history of the issue. The point of it now could be rebutted by current processes and procedures alone (e.g., including the adoption of a very behavioral evidence base). Needless to state, many medical/professional people are consulted by news organizations to provide perspectives through comparison with known problem situations. That "rule" has very accurately now become regarded (including by Dr. Lee) as simply a type of gag order, to continue to protect psychiatry from the goof psychiatrists made about Goldwater himself.
It is a gag-order, alright. Reviewing and analyzing a public figure's past behavior may give voters valuable, perhaps determinative, information as they cast their ballots. Trust the electorate. The only reason why I might be inclined to withhold a professional opinion (were I a professional) would be the anticipated reaction of the public official and, consequently, his or her base of voters.
To clarify, we happened to do a full fitness examination of Donald Trump. Some examinations do not require a one-to-one interview, as the APA has misconstrued this to mean (a personal interview is not required since 1980). Also, societal safety (Section 7) supersedes Section 7.3, which involves not diagnosing a non-patient public figure (we are not doing this, but even if we were, an exception applies in cases of danger).
Section 7.1 is the ethical guideline of relevance: "Psychiatrists are encouraged to serve society by advising and consulting with the executive, legislative, and judiciary branches of the government." We were actively in consultation with the U.S. Congress at the time.
How did the APA get it so wrong? Follow the money (and politics):
If they had an interest in history, the APA would see that, if Trump gets reelected, they might very well cease to exist. Hitler either eliminated many organizations or, as with the Christian church, made it pro Nazi.
Thank you! I already wrote about this person: "I've followed the links, and to be kind and generous about them, they contain no evidential basis for anything--just someone making kinds of declarations. People have a right to their opinions, but I'd appreciate some basis for reasoning. Also, I think there can be a case for limits to tolerance when the situation can be regarded (with ample, detailed evidence) as very dangerous."
"Also, I think there can be a case for limits to tolerance . . . ." Agreed. We do and can not tolerate someone yelling "fire!" in a crowded where there is none.
I understand. This has been the issue from the first book when Dr Lee courageously stepped forward. It’s enough for a warning. Call her a canary in a coal mine. She’s right. He is a menace to world stability and the Constitution is at risk I support her actions and rationale
I would just (in sympathy) add that "understand" doesn't necessarily mean accept, let alone approve. Thank you for adding this kind of meaning in your comment.
I fully respect APA in their sphere, and I do all of my graduate assignments in APA-format. In regard to legal matters, however, a ruling can hold for years and then, like Roe v Wade, be overturned and, some think, eventually reinstated. Therefore, both internal professional principles and legal interpretations are important in matters of ethics, conscience, and professionalism. Furthermore, there is a difference between private diagnosis and public analysis, and even in the particular persons involved.
And the other, psychologist APA, of which I am a member, says that the highest ethical fealty is to the public above an individual. Trump has shown, over and over again, that he hates democracy (just as HiItler did) and will do anything to win the Presidency.
Absolutely, Stephan...as with Hitler, TFG has no moral floor beneath which he will not go. Whatever gets him what he wants is perfectly "moral" in his eyes and he will violently attack anyone who says otherwise.
And also as with Hitler, most "normal" people don't understand a mind that works that way and they employ varying levels of denial because it's too horrifying to believe. That's how guys like this get as far as they get, in my opinion.
I completely agree, Bandy … I remember the early phone calls with you in 2017 where we specifically spoke about the kind of intervention individuals request when a family member is exhibiting signs of being "a danger to themselves or others." You spoke about this with congressional leaders shortly thereafter.
I have personally called my congressional representative and senators multiple times and continue to do so, expressing the need for mental fitness exams for people in high office whose behavior affects millions.
TFG manifests in observable behavior ALL the symptoms on the Hare Psychopathy Inventory. He clearly fomented a violent insurrection which could have been much more horrendous had it not been for the quick and solid response of the Capitol police.
There is definitely a veil of pathological denial in the minds of many Americans and even many journalists who just cannot allow themselves to believe that a dangerous ConMan was occupying the presidency of the United States and continues to occupy almost every minute of the news cycle.
Milton Meyer, in his book about Germans under Hitler, They Thought They Were Free, quotes two maxims: "Resist the beginnings" and "Consider the end." But, he says, "One must foresee the end in order to resist, or to even see, the beginnings."
In our country, so used to elections every 2 to 4 years, many people cannot imagine an end to these democratic activities. And many others foolishly embrace it as they follow, hypnotically, in the footsteps of a pathologically megalomaniacal would-be tyrant who threatens us daily with images of the colossal rage he will unleash if we don't bend to his will and give him what he wants.
To break through this pathological denial, those of us who can see "the end," must continue, as you do, Bandy, to speak to this issue on a daily basis, everywhere and in any way we can.
Thank you Bandi! Your analysis is exactly what is needed now, and what has been disastrously missing in the national, even international ether. I was unaware of your efforts in 2015, but I had pulled out my dad’s dusty old book collection which included mein kampf and The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. The similarities of Hitler and trump were astounding. I’m now convinced that it is by no means by accident. He sees the gullibility in others and capitalizes on that in a truly evil way.
Mike, I completely agree that people like Hitler and TFG recognize that other people can be fooled, gaslighted, and manipulated into not seeing covert, evil intent. Hitler hypnotized almost an entire nation and if it hadn't been for people like Dr. Lee, who spoke up early, Trump would have been able to do the same.
Great column today.
This sickness from Trump is spreading far and wide by many media and social media avenues. The most troubling aspect is how it seems many actively seek it out. THEY WANT IT. This continuous diet of evil can only lead to destruction. As one person noted in the comments, “voting doesn’t seem enough.” I agree. I feel quite powerless and “barbarians at the gate” are increasing at an exponential rate.
I agree with you, Lisa, that what's happening in our country requires much more than just voting. The psychic sickness you speak of is the spread of delusional thinking. A full-fledged Fantasyland of Delusion has been building one step at a time as 45 discovers how many people can be fooled, gaslighted, and manipulated, and how far they will go to create for him the triumphal fantasy that's been playing in his mind since he was a traumatically neglected infant, an secretly crushed and angry child, and ultimately a scheming, vengeful adolescent. Our job, as I see it, is to spread enough sane reality to counteract TFG's fantasy world, where he's the injured hero and the criminals who stormed the Capitol are his "patriotic" vindicators. In Reality Land, where we live, we know that he is a vengeful, hateful man who idealizes the primitive power of force, and that he will stop at nothing to become the American Putin. We must do everything to spread THAT story, over and over again, and I trust that as more of us do, we counteract the spread of the empty, vacuous, delusional world of a seriously disturbed man-child.
Anger, at least, and, likely, hate confer a fleeting sense of power. So the dosage of incendiary manipulation by the Trump camp is increased by ramping-up the politics of vengeance, etc. to keep Trump followers primed.
We have a member of 'Moms for Liberty' in comment section.
Thank you. I've followed the links, and to be kind and generous about them, they contain no evidential basis for anything--just someone making kinds of declarations. People have a right to their opinions, but I'd appreciate some basis for reasoning. Also, I think there can be a case for limits to tolerance when the situation can be regarded (with ample, detailed evidence) as very dangerous.
I welcome him or her...It's fine to dialogue with those who have different beliefs. I also agree with Richard Hahn that there are legitimate limits and I will not tolerate violence of any kind, verbal, emotional, or physical. Other than that, people are welcome to engage in dialogue, as I think Bandy has demonstrated.
Madeline, i have sympathy with some of these people even when they have embraced destructive political beliefs. They are not the perpetrators, they are actually poor victims. But as Dr Lee said, these kind of people unfortunately can't be rationally persuaded with any reason or logic. Reasonable arguments just bounce of them.
I agree, Sanjeev. Steve Hassan, the expert on cult behavior, suggests that we don't try to impact them with OUR perspective, but rather that we listen, respectfully, to theirs. We don't have to agree to afford them the experience of being listened to, rather than argued with. You might not want to do that so, of course, you don't have to. Or you might think that listening respectfully has no benefit. But experts say that there's nothing else to do anyway, and you never know when kindness will make an impression on someone.
Really great point, Madeline. I have listened to a few Trump-types. When they gain enough trust in me to feel comfortable that I will not attack them, Trump-types (at least thus far) are nice. Though, as is evident, I have no expertise in the disciplines of psychiatry or psychology, I have come to believe that many in the Trump base feel overlooked and hurt. Listening will almost certainly not persuade a Trump-type to change views, but it may lessen his or her proclivity toward acting out on violence. I fear that listening may not be enough, even in precluding violence, since a Trump type is subjected to venomous rhetoric and disinformation seemingly 24 / 7.
Ned, I have no expectations that anything we do or say will actually "change" die-hard Trump followers. Their need to believe he's on their side is something you and I are not going to have an impact on. And yes, the media they listen to daily reinforce their delusions. So none of that's going to change just because they have one conversation with someone who listens respectfully. But neither will it hurt to do so, if we can manage it. :)
https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/march-26-2024
Madeline, you may find this essay by historian, Dr Heather C. Richardson, to be interesting. I hope that Drs Rischardson and Lee are in contact. They zap Trump right between the eyes from two different vantage points. A powerful combination of intellect.
My concern remains when the problems of "poor victims" become mine or ours. That is, when these poor victims turn violent under the coded permission given them by Trump.
Just to be clear, I don't excuse violence of any kind, even if I believe Trump followers have been brain-washed.
Touché!
Dr. Bandy Lee's correspondent is correct that her courageous stand for principle and for unflinching psychiatric fidelity ensures a continuing spiritual legacy. In the Bible, verses such as John 5:17 and John 17:3 assure believers that positive responsiveness to the voice of God immediately confers entry into eternal life, which is both ecstatic and endless, notwithstanding the tenuous thread between time and eternity. In regard to the social scourge of violence, it's defeat is existentially predicated upon prevention of violence toward women and children. For various complex reasons, it will not be possible to make substantial progress in reducing human to human, person to person violence, unless adequate progress is made against violence toward women and children. G-d bless!
Actually, John 5:24 and John 17:3.
In support of what you say about Trump and his dangerousness, I just a review of a book in the New Yorker by Timothy Ryback about Hitler and the Nazis. The review is by Adam Gopnik. The similarities between 1932 Germany and 2004 US are very clear: a man who even many of his supporters see as a clown, who is very narcissistic, hating democracy and a liar. And how many powerful people thought they could use him for their own ends and then get rid of him. Things are even more dangerous here, though, because Hitler's party never got near 50% of the vote in any local election, unlike the Republicans, who do get more than 50%, especially in the Southern states and are in a Trump cult. So Hitler did not grab power; he was given it.
If Trump owns my erstwhile Party, then the Party (no longer) of Lincoln should re-name itself the Monarchist Party. All hail, ¡KING BABY! 🤢
Thank you again, Dr. Lee. I just wrote to the WMHC group and attached a NY Times essay that details how Trump is also like a mob boss--especially as he's bragged about comparing himself with Al Capone! Very, very dangerous, with his cult following (voters!) beyond rational reach. Vote Blue!
Trump is a sick dude and the craven quislings who submit enthusiastically are culpable.
A letter from me to me in May 2016.
https://nedmcdletters.blogspot.com/2016/05/letter-116-b-getting-historical.html
Oh if only every American would’ve read your letter and took it seriously, we wouldn’t be looking down the barrel of a fascist theocracy(bible anybody?) as we are now.
Thank you, Mike. That letter is a tribute to those ten pivotal minutes that my ninth grade Latin teacher digressed from declensions and conjugations and talked about his part in the Milgram experiments ten years before. Though the credit is due that teacher, hey, I lived in N.Y.C. long enough to know how to take credit when it is not due. 😉 The key take-away for me is that, I know how susceptible I can be to opinions. Put more optimistically, as somebody (l once thought President Jefferson) said, 'The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.' That insight applies on both the individual and collective level.
Thank you. In Wikipedia, Mike Godwin himself (of "Godwin's Law" about comparisons to fascists/Nazis) is quoted as regarding the comparisons as having value in certain situations.
I was in Connecticut for high school and had this great Latin teacher. You know the type, a teacher so engrossed in, and enthused by, the subject matter and so fond of teaching that he brought Latin back to life -- quite an accomplishment in my case as I liked neither Latin nor home-work. He was a role model for me.
🧑🎓
Anyway, one day my teacher talked about being a participant in the Milgram experiments and told us about his experience in it. Until then, I just assumed all Germans were weak in will and spirit, perhaps just plain bad. In the Milgram experiments, an actor guided a test evaluator, the latter as the unwitting subject, who asked questions.
🤨
Another actor stayed behind a partition and answered questions, to some of which he would respond incorrectly. With each error by the 'analysand', the 'evaluator' would turn the next in a series of switches, each with an increasingly intense electric shock. Almost unnoticeable at first, the switches ascended to levels of "danger".
https://www.simplypsychology.org/milgram.html
As switches reached the upper limit, there would be cautions that the level of electricity administered could be harmful, even fatal, to people with heart conditions. The fake test-taker would cry out in pain and beg the evaluator not to continue. When the evaluator hesitated to turn the switch, the 'administrator' would press him to turn the switch.
😱
The results got Dr Milgram in a boat-load of trouble, evidently, for breaching ethics in causing harm to the test subjects and in documenting results deceptively. My sense is that half of Dr Milgram's punishment came from the sobering finding that a super-majority of test-takers turned all the switches.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_gB94UCPd4
That majority percentage was in line with the results of similar re-runs of the experiment implemented in other countries. My Latin teacher spoke about his participation in the study and stated that he had walked out on the experiment in the early stages. So, I had one more reason to admire him and aspire to his level of conscience.
💯
FROM THE ARTICLE: ". . . . in the Milgram experiment, some participants refused to continue administering shocks, demonstrating individual variation in obedience to authority figures. In the original Milgram experiment, approximately 35% of participants refused to administer the highest shock level of 450 volts, while 65% obeyed and delivered the 450-volt shock."
🤔
The seed that my teacher's anecdote planted in my wretched little fifteen year old mind was that "it could happen here." As the seed grew to fruition over my maturity, another implication became clear: "it could happen to me." So, now I am happily a paragon of Christ-like conscience . . . NOT . . . sadly.
😢
That Latin teacher died, apparently divorced and alcoholic, implicated for an enabling role in sexual transgressions by teachers against students. That broke my heart and, at first, disillusioned me, though I was fully mature by then -- or, at least, fully grown up. Along came another legacy in addition to caution toward me and my 'conscience'.
😇
Virtue, for me at least, is a practice of daily discipline. I will never be virtuous, but I can get closer to being so over time. More importantly, I have found that what makes a hero a hero or a saint a saint may be his or her defects. People are NOT anointed by G-D. The choice for virtue emerges at a critical time, in a critical situation.
😳
Free will then assumes a paramountcy. Hence the letter from me to me in 2016, over forty years after my Latin teacher casually discussed his experience for five minutes. Another proof that little things can mean a lot. I am not captain courageous, never will be. Greatness, even modest success, has eluded me.
🤞
But I will be damned that, if "it" happens over here, Dr Arendt's 'banality of evil' will happen inside of me. In the meantime, please do not feel sorry for me -- I have got that one covered amply all by myself. As to Godwin's law, the idea of the Holocaust being trivialized in public discourse by loose references to it makes a lot of sense.
😟
The same phenomenon occurs with other periods (e.g., Watergate with nannygate, etc.). The frequency of reversion to Nazi references likely has more to do with the stickiness of the evil in living memory, even several generations later. Nevertheless, recalling an evil on an individual level, while likely exaggerated, may remain instructive to oneself.
A very good analogy. Another study that shows how easily decent people can become vicious, is the one by Phil Zimbardo, the Stanford Prison Study. Student who volunteered were put into two groups: prisoners and guards. Even though these were "normal," the "guards" began to brutalize the "prisoners." The study was stopped before its intended ending and Zimbardo was criticized for the research. Milgram was also criticized and these studies are not permitted. But they show how ordinary, decent people can become vicious if they are in a group that is behaving that way. And Hitler, in order to be elected Chancellor, moderated his statements about the Jews and the elite. Trump talks of a "bloodbath." And I think he means it.
Thank you for the information about the Stanford Prison Study and the criticisms of Dr Milgram. This statement really caught my because Trump has given people permission to act out violently: 💡"But they show how ordinary, decent people can become vicious if they are in a group that is behaving that way." Thank you, again, Stephan. 🤝
I followed the link to your letter and appreciate it -- quite an observation at that point in time, especially about the Hitler of the early '30s being comparable. The comparisons happen, hence Godwin coming along, because there are similarities based on recurring trends. I appreciate also your commentary about Milgram and your teacher. From my studies as a psychologist, I've been familiar with that research and the subsequent flack. I think it would not be approved by ethics boards today. Anyway, I'd never fully investigated the impact on participants and have wondered about it (having only read about some reactions in general). It was interesting to read about your direct experience with one. No-one is perfect, and I wonder if any of that teacher's experience with Milgram had any influence on later behavior. (Offhand, I don't know of any studies in general, just some commentary.) A handy, quick guide about the impact of thinking (in the cognitive-behavioral model) is Dr. Paul Friday's fridayslaws.com . For research (free reading of findings) into the authoritarian personality, see Dr. Altemeyer's theauthoritarians.org . I believe it comprehensively explains the Trump/followers phenomenon in particular, as well as authoritarianism in general. Survive!
Richard, so many thanks for links; I will check them out. 🤝 That essay of mine was inspired by those five minutes in that Latin class in 1972. I invoked the Godwin Law in another Forum after you referred me to it. The excessive comparisons and references to Nazism and Hitler do dilute the meaning of the Holocaust. 😟 Perhaps some people use these comparisons, not because they are valid, but the calculation that such references foreclose discussion. 😠
Thanks. I understand the concern, although it's interesting that Godwin addresses it in the quote from him in Wikipedia: Godwin "suggests that, applied appropriately, the rule 'should function less as a conversation ender and more as a conversation starter.'" I guess it depends on "appropriately," as you'd made that excellent point about the timing (early 1930s).
Thank you for taking the time to write a thoughtful note.
Dr Lee. What can we as citizens do? It’s very frustrating. Feels like voting is not enough.
I've adopted a remark when I would happen to be with any Trump supporters/voters, to be kind and generous to them without getting into a pointless debate. I just intend on telling them in a very serious tone that I hope someone like Trump would never, ever cross their paths in their private lives--adding to any reply that he's that dangerous. I'd leave it at that and of course vote Blue!
Was Hitler a dictator?
Is water wet?
Ask the millions of people he tortured, enslaved, and shipped off to concentration camps.
I'd suggest you ask the 6-11 million he butchered in those camps, but they're not around to tell you. However, there are still 280,000 Holocaust survivors alive to do so.
However, from reading your material, it's pretty obvious that you regard Hitler not as a sadistic megalomaniac butcher, but as a great leader.
What people, other than the Germans, were ever blamed for the actions of their dictator?
To be clear, I'm not blaming the German people for the actions of Hitler and his henchman, even though many of them were seduced into participating in what became the Holocaust. The point that Dr. Lee and others on this thread are making, is that many Americans have been similarly seduced into believing that Trump is well-meaning, that he's the victim, that he's standing up for you against the "tyranny" of democracy. Many mental health professionals, and millions of ordinary Americans, can see the dangerousness of a man who thinks he is above the law and who arrogantly attacks anyone who doesn't agree with him. He planned, encouraged, and didn't stop a violent insurrection against the very government he now wants us to let him lead.
He is like an enraged toddler demanding more cookies and violently refusing to go to bed.
You’re hilarious!
If you don't understand and accept this message, then I nevertheless just hope that someone like Trump would never, ever cross your path in your personal life.
There is behavioral research that addresses the authoritarian personality shown by both dictators and their followers: theauthoritarians.org . The findings are free at that website. I believe in things that have a research base (like FDA approved medications that my doctor prescribes). It's not just a matter of opinion.
I followed the link and read the article. It basically looks like just a history of the issue. The point of it now could be rebutted by current processes and procedures alone (e.g., including the adoption of a very behavioral evidence base). Needless to state, many medical/professional people are consulted by news organizations to provide perspectives through comparison with known problem situations. That "rule" has very accurately now become regarded (including by Dr. Lee) as simply a type of gag order, to continue to protect psychiatry from the goof psychiatrists made about Goldwater himself.
It is a gag-order, alright. Reviewing and analyzing a public figure's past behavior may give voters valuable, perhaps determinative, information as they cast their ballots. Trust the electorate. The only reason why I might be inclined to withhold a professional opinion (were I a professional) would be the anticipated reaction of the public official and, consequently, his or her base of voters.
Lots of Kool Aid drinkers on that thread.
Scary! An example of someone who lives in pathological denial of the dangerousness of Donald Trump.
To clarify, we happened to do a full fitness examination of Donald Trump. Some examinations do not require a one-to-one interview, as the APA has misconstrued this to mean (a personal interview is not required since 1980). Also, societal safety (Section 7) supersedes Section 7.3, which involves not diagnosing a non-patient public figure (we are not doing this, but even if we were, an exception applies in cases of danger).
Section 7.1 is the ethical guideline of relevance: "Psychiatrists are encouraged to serve society by advising and consulting with the executive, legislative, and judiciary branches of the government." We were actively in consultation with the U.S. Congress at the time.
How did the APA get it so wrong? Follow the money (and politics):
https://www.medpagetoday.com/publichealthpolicy/healthpolicy/91502
If they had an interest in history, the APA would see that, if Trump gets reelected, they might very well cease to exist. Hitler either eliminated many organizations or, as with the Christian church, made it pro Nazi.
Thank you! I already wrote about this person: "I've followed the links, and to be kind and generous about them, they contain no evidential basis for anything--just someone making kinds of declarations. People have a right to their opinions, but I'd appreciate some basis for reasoning. Also, I think there can be a case for limits to tolerance when the situation can be regarded (with ample, detailed evidence) as very dangerous."
"Also, I think there can be a case for limits to tolerance . . . ." Agreed. We do and can not tolerate someone yelling "fire!" in a crowded where there is none.
I understand. This has been the issue from the first book when Dr Lee courageously stepped forward. It’s enough for a warning. Call her a canary in a coal mine. She’s right. He is a menace to world stability and the Constitution is at risk I support her actions and rationale
I would just (in sympathy) add that "understand" doesn't necessarily mean accept, let alone approve. Thank you for adding this kind of meaning in your comment.
I fully respect APA in their sphere, and I do all of my graduate assignments in APA-format. In regard to legal matters, however, a ruling can hold for years and then, like Roe v Wade, be overturned and, some think, eventually reinstated. Therefore, both internal professional principles and legal interpretations are important in matters of ethics, conscience, and professionalism. Furthermore, there is a difference between private diagnosis and public analysis, and even in the particular persons involved.
And to be clear, Dr. Lee never diagnosed TFG with a psychological disorder. She only ever called him, "dangerous."
And the other, psychologist APA, of which I am a member, says that the highest ethical fealty is to the public above an individual. Trump has shown, over and over again, that he hates democracy (just as HiItler did) and will do anything to win the Presidency.
Absolutely, Stephan...as with Hitler, TFG has no moral floor beneath which he will not go. Whatever gets him what he wants is perfectly "moral" in his eyes and he will violently attack anyone who says otherwise.
And also as with Hitler, most "normal" people don't understand a mind that works that way and they employ varying levels of denial because it's too horrifying to believe. That's how guys like this get as far as they get, in my opinion.
the article was shocking, even for me.