I subscribe to Dr Lee's newsletter, but I may or may not be able to be present for the zoom call -- family obligations.
If I cannot make it, someone here please introduce this thought:
In 2016-7, Dr Lee, understanding the threat Trump represents, convened her conference of experts and published her book. She did her best, and, slowly, the concept of a 'malignant narcissist sociopath' has justly entered standard discourse about Trump. She was professionally abused for this -- also, I think, unjustly.
But in the past few months -- I noted this years ago; I am a physician -- it is evident that Trump has a significant dementing illness, an organic brain syndrome. This of course is superimposed on, and distinguishable from, his personality-disorder, his ignorance, and his stupidity. Whether his dementia is Lewy Body, FTD, vascular/lacunar, or ordinary Alzheimer's, I don't know. I am not a neurologist.
I would like to suggest to Dr Lee that a panel --a few dozen, ideally-- of qualified, experienced, practicing neurologists and MD/PhD neuropsychologists be convened to study his filmed public appearances, rally speeches, and published tweets. They should then meet, and deliver an observation-based diagnosis of his dementia.
Most of what a neurologist and psychologist works with is observation. Psychometric testing can (and should) confirm or disconfirm those observations, of course. But experienced neurologists can (and should) weigh in on what is plain, videotaped, and in front of us all. As observers have noted: 'The Trump we see today is the best we will ever see. He will never be better than he is right now.'
An expert like Dr Lee warned the world.
An expert like Timothy Snyder warned the world.
Neurologist/Neuropsychologist experts must warn the world.
If the world survives (which, by the way, I doubt) there should at least be a record that 'someone sounded the alarm.'
I alerted the Professor Joyce Vance Substack community at "Civil Discourse". I was able to give away 1 FREE Month Subscription to someone who greatly appreciated access to the ZOOM Conference at 2:00 PM EDT TODAY, 6/15 in a few hours.
Yes to all of this, and it was talked about in the Zoom discussion today, John. You'll be able to hear it when Bandy sends out the recording. People also mentioned factors such as inability to empathize, to mentalize, to understand other people's needs and feelings, his indifference to the suffering he causes, the autism and dementia traits that he should be tested for...etc. Obviously, he's dangerous precisely because he's committed to revenge, as he tells the screaming crowds at his rallies...he has no remorse, no acknowledgment of guilt, he continues to assert THE BIG LIE and not be able to assimilate reality...etc. There must be legal ways to limit this man's hate-speech because it activates violence in his followers.
I don't have anything to add until I hear what you say. It's difficult to listen to this braying ass just because of what he's done to this country. It's difficult to offer insight when I am not dispassionate.
Look forward to your take. I hope it doesn't get too technical but is very accessible to most Americans.
It's a town fair with some booths. I don't go for a bit but the woman running to replace Ken Buck (and prevent Lauren Boebert) will also be there. It will be interesting.
I imaging there will be many threats & acts of violence. I fearfully believe this country is in for a lot of violence, well planed AND spontaneous. Since there isn't a plan to limit Trump's behavior beyond normal law enforcement his threats continue to be his battle calls to his public. As Mark Esper said, "God help us all." People like him ( former Generals, republicans, etc.) really must participate to give us a chance of limiting Trump contagion. Be prepared. be forewarned. This is a psychopaths dream!!
I also think that reference should be made to the Hitler regime and all the bloodthirsty racist things he said and did should be more discussed by the media. Trump is saying the same things.
Yes..Trump has exhibited OVERT RACISM way back since the Central Park 5 incident. Calling on the purposeful scapegoating of a minority within a population is a KNOWN BEHAVIOR of almost all authoritarians, often followed up with violence against that group, either state sponsored, as with Hitler, or spontaneous civil war as in the horrible case of Rwanda.
I do not understand why liberal media such as the NY Times do not post or at least describe Bandy's ideas about Trump. And perhaps some ideas about how we can get that information out about him to all the media.
Bandy, the conversation today was great, and I'm looking forward to hearing it again when you send out the recording.
I would like to add to the suggestions for your Risk Assessment, that authoritarians often name a scapegoated group that is "responsible" for all that is "wrong" with the country. They label that group sub-human and tacitly give permission for the population to direct their anger and hatred at that group, "Just punch him, will ya? And don't be too nice." Trump's been doing that since his escalator speech about Muslims and Mexicans. He continues to scapegoat judges, jury members, poll workers, politicians and their families, all Democrats, women, journalists, and anybody who doesn't fall on their knees in front of him. This is a SPECIFIC BEHAVIOR OF VIOLENT DICTATORS, as Ruth Ben Ghiat can confirm, and should definitely be included in an assessment of risk, being presented to the D.A.s who will be sentencing him for all his various convicted crimes.
I love that the psychiatrists are meeting and will submit emergency recommendations to the Manhatten District Attorney's Office. I wonder who else should receive these recommendations. For example, it is dangerous that journalists and mass media continue to discuss this election cycle in the usual "horse-race" manner. I'm intensely alarmed when some host, even on MSNBC, asks a guest, "So what do you think Trump and the Republicans have to do to win the Black vote," or something like that. WHAT??? This is the guy who organized an armed attack on his own vice president and on EVERY ELECTED OFFICIAL and we're just letting him run for president of the country he's working to destroy? He sat for 3 hours watching the violence because it met some perverted, revenge fantasy of his and now he's just another guy running for the most important office in the world?!?
So, what are MY recommendations? If we want to live up to our highest values of "free speech," but we also recognize that it's not OK to falsely cry, "FIRE" in a crowded auditorium, then I would apply the latter test to this man's "speech." It should be shown, in explicit detail, how, when he comments negatively on someone, shortly thereafter that person receives death threats and even physical assault, as in the case of Nancy Pelosi's husband. I haven't compiled such a list but I bet that dozens of democracy-watchers have; Steve Schmidt, Liz Cheney, Joyce Vance, et.al. I would consult with them and others, compile a list of the utterances, such as, "If you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore," and make a legal and moral case for somehow limiting this guy's access to big megaphones. This is an emergency, it calls for measures our country probably has rarely, if ever, had to or wanted to use. But this is different. Please, let's think outside the box, from the point of view of innocent Americans who are being threatened emotionally and physically. A proud democracy doesn't let loud-mouthed sociopaths walk all over them.
Madeline, I posted this after the Zoom but regarding the call-and-response dynamics between Trump and his violent followers, an expert witness Dr. Peter Simi testified in detail about this at the civil Colorado 14th Amendment trial which found Trump was responsible for inciting the Jan 6 insurrection. He showed multiple documented examples over many months of the reactions of right-wing extremists to Trump's behavior in tweets, speeches, videos etc culminating in Jan 6. This may be influential to Judge Merchan since the testimony was given in a civil trial with cross-examination by Trump's aggressive attorneys.
Great! He has done unique research. His report is not publicly available outside of the court documents but maybe he would share it with you as fellow academics? Also I think CREW commissioned it as part of their case so I wonder if their legal expertise might be helpful to this effort too?
Kirk, I think if Bandy needs it she'll be able to contact Dr. Simi as a colleague in the field of violence. His testimony is so relevant to assessing the risk to the public of future violence from Trump. Is there any doubt that he will use the only power he has, the power to activate his craven goons? I'm looking forward to Bandy and her colleagues releasing their Risk Assessment recommendations to the sentencing D.A. and Judge Merchan. BTW, I don't know what CREW stands for...?
That's great, I think Dr. Simi's standing as an expert witness in the Colorado trial and the report he submitted then may have some influence on the Manhattan court. CREW is the non-profit Citizens for Responsiblity and Ethics in Washington, which I think Dr. Lee has been in contact with in previous conferences through some of their members like Richard Painter. In the Colorado 14th amendment trial which was started by local Republicans who thought Trump should be disqualified from their primary ballot because he caused an insurrection, CREW provided legal support and funding, including locating the expert witnesses like Dr. Simi and commissioning his research report to investigate how Trump influences his followers to engage in violence. So I'm wondering if CREW may be able to share that report and/or provide other insight into approaching the Manhattan court? Their president Noah Bookbinder has been commenting on the Colorado trial (Trump vs Anderson) on Threads
Wow...thanks for more information, Kirk! In case Bandy doesn't read every response on these substacks I'll forward this info. to her personal email box. How do you come to be so on top of this issue? I was fascinated by the Colorado Repub's who tried to get Trump disqualified from the primary ballot and was deflated when their case didn't succeed.
I subscribe to Dr Lee's newsletter, but I may or may not be able to be present for the zoom call -- family obligations.
If I cannot make it, someone here please introduce this thought:
In 2016-7, Dr Lee, understanding the threat Trump represents, convened her conference of experts and published her book. She did her best, and, slowly, the concept of a 'malignant narcissist sociopath' has justly entered standard discourse about Trump. She was professionally abused for this -- also, I think, unjustly.
But in the past few months -- I noted this years ago; I am a physician -- it is evident that Trump has a significant dementing illness, an organic brain syndrome. This of course is superimposed on, and distinguishable from, his personality-disorder, his ignorance, and his stupidity. Whether his dementia is Lewy Body, FTD, vascular/lacunar, or ordinary Alzheimer's, I don't know. I am not a neurologist.
I would like to suggest to Dr Lee that a panel --a few dozen, ideally-- of qualified, experienced, practicing neurologists and MD/PhD neuropsychologists be convened to study his filmed public appearances, rally speeches, and published tweets. They should then meet, and deliver an observation-based diagnosis of his dementia.
Most of what a neurologist and psychologist works with is observation. Psychometric testing can (and should) confirm or disconfirm those observations, of course. But experienced neurologists can (and should) weigh in on what is plain, videotaped, and in front of us all. As observers have noted: 'The Trump we see today is the best we will ever see. He will never be better than he is right now.'
An expert like Dr Lee warned the world.
An expert like Timothy Snyder warned the world.
Neurologist/Neuropsychologist experts must warn the world.
If the world survives (which, by the way, I doubt) there should at least be a record that 'someone sounded the alarm.'
I alerted the Professor Joyce Vance Substack community at "Civil Discourse". I was able to give away 1 FREE Month Subscription to someone who greatly appreciated access to the ZOOM Conference at 2:00 PM EDT TODAY, 6/15 in a few hours.
Yes to all of this, and it was talked about in the Zoom discussion today, John. You'll be able to hear it when Bandy sends out the recording. People also mentioned factors such as inability to empathize, to mentalize, to understand other people's needs and feelings, his indifference to the suffering he causes, the autism and dementia traits that he should be tested for...etc. Obviously, he's dangerous precisely because he's committed to revenge, as he tells the screaming crowds at his rallies...he has no remorse, no acknowledgment of guilt, he continues to assert THE BIG LIE and not be able to assimilate reality...etc. There must be legal ways to limit this man's hate-speech because it activates violence in his followers.
I don't have anything to add until I hear what you say. It's difficult to listen to this braying ass just because of what he's done to this country. It's difficult to offer insight when I am not dispassionate.
Look forward to your take. I hope it doesn't get too technical but is very accessible to most Americans.
Thank you. Someone needs to do this.
Fully agree Jen. Perhaps we can all organize to combat this in many ways. Ways ? Ideas?
I'm waiting to see.
I'm at a town festival tomorrow in the Dems booth. I may be able to test drive some ideas
Great Jen! Looking forward to your information.
not an uplifting zoom meeting.
Still looking for paths forward. How did the town hall meeting go?
I find the zoom meetings to easily get interrupted by extended personal stories.
However, these are at least an opportunity to know there’s a well meaning community.
It's a town fair with some booths. I don't go for a bit but the woman running to replace Ken Buck (and prevent Lauren Boebert) will also be there. It will be interesting.
See you all there.
I imaging there will be many threats & acts of violence. I fearfully believe this country is in for a lot of violence, well planed AND spontaneous. Since there isn't a plan to limit Trump's behavior beyond normal law enforcement his threats continue to be his battle calls to his public. As Mark Esper said, "God help us all." People like him ( former Generals, republicans, etc.) really must participate to give us a chance of limiting Trump contagion. Be prepared. be forewarned. This is a psychopaths dream!!
I also think that reference should be made to the Hitler regime and all the bloodthirsty racist things he said and did should be more discussed by the media. Trump is saying the same things.
Yes..Trump has exhibited OVERT RACISM way back since the Central Park 5 incident. Calling on the purposeful scapegoating of a minority within a population is a KNOWN BEHAVIOR of almost all authoritarians, often followed up with violence against that group, either state sponsored, as with Hitler, or spontaneous civil war as in the horrible case of Rwanda.
I do not understand why liberal media such as the NY Times do not post or at least describe Bandy's ideas about Trump. And perhaps some ideas about how we can get that information out about him to all the media.
Bandy, the conversation today was great, and I'm looking forward to hearing it again when you send out the recording.
I would like to add to the suggestions for your Risk Assessment, that authoritarians often name a scapegoated group that is "responsible" for all that is "wrong" with the country. They label that group sub-human and tacitly give permission for the population to direct their anger and hatred at that group, "Just punch him, will ya? And don't be too nice." Trump's been doing that since his escalator speech about Muslims and Mexicans. He continues to scapegoat judges, jury members, poll workers, politicians and their families, all Democrats, women, journalists, and anybody who doesn't fall on their knees in front of him. This is a SPECIFIC BEHAVIOR OF VIOLENT DICTATORS, as Ruth Ben Ghiat can confirm, and should definitely be included in an assessment of risk, being presented to the D.A.s who will be sentencing him for all his various convicted crimes.
I love that the psychiatrists are meeting and will submit emergency recommendations to the Manhatten District Attorney's Office. I wonder who else should receive these recommendations. For example, it is dangerous that journalists and mass media continue to discuss this election cycle in the usual "horse-race" manner. I'm intensely alarmed when some host, even on MSNBC, asks a guest, "So what do you think Trump and the Republicans have to do to win the Black vote," or something like that. WHAT??? This is the guy who organized an armed attack on his own vice president and on EVERY ELECTED OFFICIAL and we're just letting him run for president of the country he's working to destroy? He sat for 3 hours watching the violence because it met some perverted, revenge fantasy of his and now he's just another guy running for the most important office in the world?!?
So, what are MY recommendations? If we want to live up to our highest values of "free speech," but we also recognize that it's not OK to falsely cry, "FIRE" in a crowded auditorium, then I would apply the latter test to this man's "speech." It should be shown, in explicit detail, how, when he comments negatively on someone, shortly thereafter that person receives death threats and even physical assault, as in the case of Nancy Pelosi's husband. I haven't compiled such a list but I bet that dozens of democracy-watchers have; Steve Schmidt, Liz Cheney, Joyce Vance, et.al. I would consult with them and others, compile a list of the utterances, such as, "If you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore," and make a legal and moral case for somehow limiting this guy's access to big megaphones. This is an emergency, it calls for measures our country probably has rarely, if ever, had to or wanted to use. But this is different. Please, let's think outside the box, from the point of view of innocent Americans who are being threatened emotionally and physically. A proud democracy doesn't let loud-mouthed sociopaths walk all over them.
Madeline, I posted this after the Zoom but regarding the call-and-response dynamics between Trump and his violent followers, an expert witness Dr. Peter Simi testified in detail about this at the civil Colorado 14th Amendment trial which found Trump was responsible for inciting the Jan 6 insurrection. He showed multiple documented examples over many months of the reactions of right-wing extremists to Trump's behavior in tweets, speeches, videos etc culminating in Jan 6. This may be influential to Judge Merchan since the testimony was given in a civil trial with cross-examination by Trump's aggressive attorneys.
The whole trial is on C-SPAN, Dr. Peter Simi's testimony starts here: https://www.c-span.org/video/?531511-1/president-trump-14th-amendment-hearing-colorado-day-2-part-1
I believe he also submitted an expert witness report to that court which might be relevant here.
Kirk, I found more segments of Dr. Simi’s testimony and passed the info. on to Bandy. She appreciated it and so do I!
Great! He has done unique research. His report is not publicly available outside of the court documents but maybe he would share it with you as fellow academics? Also I think CREW commissioned it as part of their case so I wonder if their legal expertise might be helpful to this effort too?
Kirk, I think if Bandy needs it she'll be able to contact Dr. Simi as a colleague in the field of violence. His testimony is so relevant to assessing the risk to the public of future violence from Trump. Is there any doubt that he will use the only power he has, the power to activate his craven goons? I'm looking forward to Bandy and her colleagues releasing their Risk Assessment recommendations to the sentencing D.A. and Judge Merchan. BTW, I don't know what CREW stands for...?
That's great, I think Dr. Simi's standing as an expert witness in the Colorado trial and the report he submitted then may have some influence on the Manhattan court. CREW is the non-profit Citizens for Responsiblity and Ethics in Washington, which I think Dr. Lee has been in contact with in previous conferences through some of their members like Richard Painter. In the Colorado 14th amendment trial which was started by local Republicans who thought Trump should be disqualified from their primary ballot because he caused an insurrection, CREW provided legal support and funding, including locating the expert witnesses like Dr. Simi and commissioning his research report to investigate how Trump influences his followers to engage in violence. So I'm wondering if CREW may be able to share that report and/or provide other insight into approaching the Manhattan court? Their president Noah Bookbinder has been commenting on the Colorado trial (Trump vs Anderson) on Threads
https://www.threads.net/@noahbookbinder
Wow...thanks for more information, Kirk! In case Bandy doesn't read every response on these substacks I'll forward this info. to her personal email box. How do you come to be so on top of this issue? I was fascinated by the Colorado Repub's who tried to get Trump disqualified from the primary ballot and was deflated when their case didn't succeed.
Thanks, Kirk...this is great! I'll watch it and try to get it to Bandy. Thank you so much!